Monday, March 14, 2011

Warhammer Fantasy RPG: The Dreaded 3rd Edition...

Oh god....

This review is in two parts to fully analyze the amount of garbage in this edition.

Part One



Part Two

35 comments:

  1. Hmmm. did you accidentally post the first half twice?

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  2. It looks like someone wanted to make a more 'hardcore' version of descent....
    I dont think it was made for people who roleplay at all actually. I think it was made for people who want Extremely complex tabletop games, one of their big markets.
    Honestly, I think this is just FFG when they go very Very wrong

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  3. Sorry about that. It should be fixed now

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  4. I knew I wasn't ever going to buy that just because I have a cat whose favorite toys are polyhedral in nature. I'd be buying replacement dice in no time. One of the compelling things about this hobby is that all you need is a book, some dice, some paper, and some friends. You can game anywhere with as little prep as the GM will stand for. This thing does not allow that.

    Seems the more they try to simplify the whole tabletop RPG concept for new players, the more confusing it gets; moreover, the more fundamentally unlike tabletop gaming the systems become. As far as I am concerned, the important thing is to tell a compelling story full of interesting characters and engaging plot. The dice are just there to keep things fair and yet unpredictable.

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  5. Mickey Mouse reference... WIN!
    Oh Brother where art though reference... EPIC WIN!!!

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  6. Thanks for the review. It's sort of sad that a lot of games are trying to take the video game route.

    Heck, the new D&D Red Box released last year even goes so far and mentions that (and this is a direct quote) "if you've ever played Neverwinter Nights, Final Fantasy, The Legend of Zelda, World of Warcraft, Dragon Age, or games like those, you already have some idea of what the Dungeons & Dragons game is about." What is the tabletop industry coming to?

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  7. Well I guess I am glad that I haven't invested in the most recent Warhammer Fantasy RPG, I have been tempted a few times as it looked rather shiny and pretty looking.

    Its especially disappointing as I know Fantasy Flight is capable of better. I am a big fan of their Grimm RPG, and the Midnight campaign Setting for 3.5 D&D.

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  8. R, Neverwinter Nights used - if I'm informed correctly - a variant of AD&D 3.5 which allows for a more "real-time" battle.

    But it seems that D&D Essentials emphasizes and embraces the WoW-ishness that 4th Edition already seems to have had.

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  9. This is a shameful truth considering the excellent work FFG has done with the Warhammer 40k RPGs.

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  10. Well, that's one to avoid then.

    Thanks Iron Liz. :)

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  11. Oddly enough, FFGs Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch are all really well done games that harken back to the old style of Warhammer gaming and keep the stats the same as the war game. I reccomend them to anyone with a hankering to explore the grimdark future of Warhammer 40K.
    Thanks Liz, that was a very enlightening review.

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  12. Many thanks for the review, I had already made up my mind about the game (and the fact I wasnt going to risk £60 on something so alien) but its nice to hear another person opinion on the subject. I do RPG reviews myself and I'm taking notes on your style as I like it very much and would have to aim to try something a little more like yours, I guess the first step is to have scripted reviews as yours doesnt sound off the cuff.

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  13. @R: The worst part about that is some newer systems make it pretty hard to make a really interesting character. (this one seems to have made that difficulty into an art form of impossibility) Seems like you may as well be starting with a computer generated template the way some of these things are designed. As a GM, I don't want there to ever be a wrong way to make a character, and I don't want characters to be able to be boiled down to their class or race because every other member of that class or race is just like them. I want my players to be able to figure out exactly what kind of PERSON they want to play, first and foremost, instead of just cobbling together whatever will be most useful in a dungeon crawl.

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  14. Wow, what a harsh review.

    Okay, so just judging by face value, this is a Fantasy Flight game. FF is primarily a board game producer, so the hybrid board game concept really doesn't surprise me. The needlessly complex and redundant rules are also kind of a trademark of theirs, because they build games to be played competitively, and favor over-complication over leaving absolutely ANYTHING ambiguous or unexplained.

    Thant being said, they're also cash-milking fiends that know they produce (mostly) great products and charge absolutely insane amounts for them. They also make as many unique game pieces as possible to ensure that you absolutely HAVE to go through them to replace the easily-lost bits, as well as releasing as many expansions as possible to keep the money coming. Rough guess: I'd assume all the content and storyline progression you want is included in no less than 3 "expansions", all with high price tags. In fact... ::goes to check the Fantasy Flight site::

    Well, I was wrong. Or at least drastically underestimating. There are EIGHT expansions, including "toolkits" for GMs and players that most likely just give you options that should have come with the base game. Plus there are "Vaults" for the GM, Players, and Creatures... i.e. replace your lost cards, cutouts, and pieces. This, of course, aren't even considered expansions and are listed as "core" products. All for the low, low price of $30-50 each. And, of course, you can replace your dice (or just get more) for only $12.

    I've heard good things about the FF Warhammer 40k RPG... but if this game is any indication, they should just stick to ridiculously complicated board games for those with way too much disposable income... then again, those two concepts are pretty much the core of the Warhammer War Games, so maybe they've finally reached their target demographic.

    Either way, keep up the great reviews! You keep mentioning World of Darkness... I'd love to see a review of it in the future! I've been a fan of the Storyteller system ever since 2nd Ed Vampire the Masquerade, and would love to hear your opinions on the New (or even Old) WoD system and setting.

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  15. First; the edited clip of Wonka going ape shit gave me the willies, thank you very much.

    Second; God damn, it sounds like in terms of a game WH3E took a long hard run at a nearby brick wall. When things go this badly for any product, RPG or not, I cannot but wonder if people involved in the production deliberately sabotaged the work.

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  16. Okay...I'm about a third of the way through the video, and I'm about to finish the rest (so far so good, by the way...you're really coming into your own, Liz) but I had to stop and say: You have GOT to start using "Sweet Christmas, this game is fucked" as a regular catchphrase.

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  17. This review was much appreciated. I very much enjoyed FF's Warhammer 40k RPG's, and was considering looking into there WHFB RPG.

    Seeing how this system looks, and comparing it to Dark Heresy is night and day.

    Oh well. I'll save my money for Fantasy Flight's Black Crusade Book. Now just to convince my players to try out a Chaos Campaign.

    X3

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  18. Good gad! I'm sorry you had to go through this. Cast it back into the abyss! Seven?!

    Excellent work, signora.

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  19. I think for this one, i'm gonna go the heretical route. I've had alot more fun with 3e than I ever did with 2e. But I shall go no further than that, as doing so steps into edition war territory and I don't want a witch hunt on me for 3e like I put up with in Star Wars or Final Fantasy.

    Besides, you can only lose an edition war.

    ~The Monk

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  20. Did you even bother to play the system?

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  21. Aside from my remark to playtesting it for reviewing purposes... I guess you're right regarding the overall game.
    Guess what: I hated 2E already, the 40K games from FFG are even worse.

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  22. What a god damn disappointment. I tried to read through the normal book on this system, but I got confused and went back to 2nd edition. I hate this system, and agree with Liz on it. what a waste of paper and ink.

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  23. I think its fair to say that it was a token effort by fantasy flight.
    Great review.

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  24. Okay, having just seen that character sheet with its DnD style Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha stat block, I can safely say that FFG is kinda dumb.

    They already have an intutive, easy to use system requiring fewer books with their 40K RPGs, which still use the original nine-stat block from the tabletop, with adjustments for use in a d10 roll-under system.

    Why, then, when you've got one working system and its great and everyone loves it would you then COMPLETELY CHANGE IT OUT OF THE BLUE TO SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT?!

    Seriously, Liz. I could make a freaking conversion from any given 40k RPG (probably Rogue Trader would be best) to Fantasy that would be a better product, and I DON'T OWN BOTH PROPERTIES TO BEGIN WITH!

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  25. I new just seeing the damn huge box, and the pictures of the content, that I wanted no damn thing to do with that game, and I'm sure as hell glad I never wasted the money on it. Whoever sent you that box deserves a medal for making that sacrifice for the greater good.

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  26. Ha, done with Warhammer? You are never done with Warhammer! In time you will have to review the WH40k RPG! Mwahahaha!

    Luckily its a fairly good system that stays consistent through its three major settings (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch)

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  27. What about the Warhammer 40k RPGs :D I've always been a fan of the W40K world, which is set in a grim world... I mean galaxy. They also have eles there ( sure they are cocky bastards and are called eldar but hey.. ELVEs( they dont have killer treas tho).

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  28. You definitely heaven played the game.
    Because if you have played it you wold find that this version is a unique and fun experience.
    This is the best RPG i have played (and i also DM for it ).
    The Guys at Libra Fanatica and the guy at The Recless Dice podcast are longterm fans of the franchise and thy are doing a good job in promoting this edition.
    IronLiz you cold not see innovation not even if it hits you in the face.

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  29. Hmm, I can see some of the irritation from a lot of this. My experience with the stuff from Fantasy Flight is more the 40K era warhammer stuff which I rather like. Rarely can I say that my most successful character was a imperial guardsman who tended towards suicide bombs to deal with threats (then again, I can also say that I killed an unbound demon host tyranid that way, so that's cool)

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  30. Wow, it is clear that Iron Liz has never played this game. I also found its pretty funny when she called D&D 3.5 "simple." This review is garbage simply because Iron Liz are not informed enough to do a proper review. If you want to learn more about this game, please go here: http://recklessdice.com/ at least then you can get an informed, unbiased review.

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  31. Well it seems you should first try to play this game, because you misunderstood a lot of rules.

    1. Fortune Dice are a personal pool like fate points in 2nd.

    2. There is no opponents check. You roll one, ore two full hands of dice. Check out the first time the corrsponding page in the book and then all is there. succes, grade of success or maybe negative effects. Done.
    Complete RPG newbies get the dices after their third roll. You should get it faster.

    3. The career sets the skills you can invest your experience points the easiest ways in. Or if your carrer is a close combat one, academic or for social interactions. Still non different to 2nd Edition where also there the slayer was a damage dealer even before that word was invented.

    4. You where quite short on action cards, as these hasn't to be socketed but bought for experience. Also powerfull actions have a tocken system so that you don't use them every turn. Oh well you seem to have lost all of your tokens. Must be me that I don't have lost none of my monopoly hotels from my childhood times.

    5. With the action cards you have no rule book fuzzeling. Everything is there. All the special attacks you know... right there in front of you with a myriad of possible boons or banes, so positive or negativ outcomes. Ah I forgot, to complicated for you.

    6. Whats your problem with the dice? Actually they are THE thing that makes this game great. Its like you are Queequeg sitting on the Pequod. One roll and you know everything!

    7. Talents are there to define the career and your roll. They are a set of bonuses you can have by cards so default. No one says you can't roleplay a situation and your GM gives you another bonus without a card. The Talents can also be spend and then have to reload. You remeber, the tokens. So reloading kung fu is not possibele if you have just used yur helicopter chip. The idea is that you just don't make a pile of your talents.

    8. Well actually you are right on some Points. The Content is minimal. Without the 2nd Edition books and the novels and the table top that is just not enough content in the core book to get for a newcommer to get the feeling for it. Even the expansions seem a little light on text.

    9. You are also right that they put the timeline before the storm of chaos. A step further might be good. Maybe they thought not to repeat the failure of warhammer online where there was a complete Reckoning stuff timeline mumbo jumbo.

    10. It says a hundred times in the rulebook that no one is whiping you into using the tokens. You need to know your action cards and need that dice, or use an online dice roller for free. But with the punchboard stuff you get help to run the game and mechanics better.

    Need to know if in what stance your character is, look at you stance meter. Need to know if you have trained sniper shot. Look at your action card. Rules of sniper shot, on your action card. Recharge to use a powerfull attack, see action card. In what different RPG can you use 8 different range attacks, all with different rules. And even double that options because they can be used in recless or conservative stance. A GM or player can't all know or memorize this. Wathing every 5 mins the book is even more time consuming. Here you have everything on the grab and the player has the rules he need to know for the taking.

    Yes they have left the path of WS, BS, S, T, I, Fel, W, Ld. and what they had. In the Tabletop they even cut the last part very early.

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  32. If she hadn't actually bothered to play test the game. Why should I bother watching her review?

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  33. 2nd edition shat on the world of dark 1e, 3rd edition ate it, and then re-shat it.

    Terrible, terrible tripe, 3e is. Avoid.

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    Replies
    1. If you believe what Iron Liz told.
      She is not an expert on this, far from it i have played it and the problems on my end was not the game but the players.
      From the words of a local d&d player:
      " I haven't have so much fun with a rpg since i started playing d&d 3, 3.5, pathfinder. One of the most unique rpg experience i ever had."
      The Reckless Dice Podcast did it better and thy are the real experts

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